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Feb 21st, 2018, 1:44pm


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 thread  Author  Topic: Suggestion to close the Conforum  (Read 250 times)
DDRM
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xx Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Thread started on: Dec 18th, 2017, 10:59am »

I've tried to word this announcement in as neutral a way as possible: I hope I can avoid offending anyone. Please could respondents also try to keep a neutral tone.

Richard Russell (author of BB4W and founder of this forum) has suggested that it should be shut down, and that all users should migrate to the cross-platform conforum for BBC BASIC:

http://bbcbasic.conforums.com/

His rationale for this is:

1) By using the other forum, people will have access to his expertise.
2) The user community isn't big enough to justify 2 fora, and it is confusing / distracting to have 2 "competitors".

I wouldn't argue with either of those points: his expertise is immeasurably greater than mine, and probably greater than the combined expertise of all those using this forum. I would urge all users of BB4W to be members of the cross-platform conforum, and to use it as their primary source of support, particularly for complex or technical queries.

The question of closing this forum is a little more complex. Some background:

1) Richard left this forum because he came into conflict with some other members. I understand that this included communication outside the forum, which left him feeling bullied. Presumably he would not want such people to transfer to the cross-platform conforum.

2) Conversely, there were other members of this forum who found Richard's style rather "frank". There is some overlap between this group and the previous one!

3) A little while ago we had a poll about Richard returning to this forum. The vote was 14:1 in favour of his return, but he considered the one vote, and a few cautionary comments, as a veto.

4) This current discussion was provoked by (a) someone telling Richard that they would never join the cross-platform conforum, and (b) my not reminding someone that Richard might be able to solve their problem.

These factors suggest to me that there are a small cohort of BB4W users who choose not to be members (or at least active members) of the cross-platform conforum (perhaps to the benefit of both themselves and Richard). I am reluctant to close this forum and deprive them of a talking shop unnecessarily.

I'd welcome views about the desirability of closing the forum. I suggest people do NOT comment on whether they consider themselves to be in the group described in the previous paragraph, but restrict their comments to whether they feel this conforum should close or not, and why.

I remind you that read access to the forum is open, including to Richard, so I again ask for moderation in the tone of postings: I reserve the right to edit or delete any I regard as inflammatory.

I further remind you (and will remind him) that Richard retains Admin rights over this forum, and it is completely within both his power and his rights to close it unilaterally. He has suggested that if it were closed, the best solution would be to replace it with a forwarding page.

Best wishes,

D
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David Williams
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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #1 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 12:55pm »

Would it be possible to set this Conforum to a 'read only' state so that people can peruse, learn and otherwise benefit from its contents for potentially years to come? Or is the intention to essentially delete the whole thing and replace it with a forwarding page? That of course would entail the loss of a fair amount of useful information!

I personally wouldn't be averse to this forum's closure (but not necessarily deletion) for the very sensible reasons you outlined in the first post of this thread.

Finally, I just want to say that I think you (DDRM) have done an admirable job of administering this forum, and providing support (most often single-handedly) whenever you could.


Regards,
David.
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michael
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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #2 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 1:42pm »

I'm hoping I may have convinced Richard to reconsider, as he redirected to a more positive direction.

This forum has become an asset, at risk of being another casualty of the ongoing list of archives that became disabled or deleted.

For each one that is dismantled, it would further alienate those whom may look for inspiration or help. Especially if content has been destroyed.

I understand Richards reasons for suggesting deletion of this forum, as he has actually stated many times his frustrations.

Remaining positive and supporting Richard on his forum, is important, as the consequences of not doing so would be degradation of productivity.

Richard has become much more calm and receptive. I would ask that those that have been at odds, perhaps take a step back and try to remain calm.

If it seems abrasive, just let the issue slide... be calm and positive.. Always add a positive note to the end of any conversation and you know what?...............

You, and everyone else will feel better.


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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #3 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 2:30pm »

The other Conforums objective is stated to be for the Cross Platform version. Is that proposed to be changed to encompass all of Richard's children including BB4W? At present comments have been made that seemed to me to make such contributions unwelcome.
Quote:
Either way your program is BB4W-specific, which is undesirable given that this forum is principally intended to support BBCSDL, the cross-platform version of BBC BASIC.

I am not sure how many people here don't know that there is another forum, but I can't believe that it is very many so they would appear to have chosen not to join the other one. Thus it would appear that they don't want to appeal to Richard's expertise or get comments like that. I use lots of Windows API in BB4W use my own libraries and will stick with what I know.

On the other hand if you want to build any member to member dialog then this forum seems to handle that better. There is no 'cut out'. Indeed member to member dialog what appears to be happening only here.
Keeping it open would therefore seem like a better option to me and for me.

I hopped from forum to forum following Richard but just got tired of that with groups.io which I have never bothered with but get emails from anyway. It seems to be a one way communication.

This is my resting place and I hope it does not get shuttered like so many previous ones.


Perhaps there are quite a few people interested in BB4W as I see 15 guests looking at this page!

Z




« Last Edit: Dec 18th, 2017, 3:35pm by Zaphod » User IP Logged

Zaphod
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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #4 on: Dec 18th, 2017, 8:58pm »

I don't understand your logic Michael. There are three fora, Conforums for Cross platform, Conforums for BB4W and Groups.io for both.

Richard is or was Admin to all of these and can participate as he chooses or as DDRM reminded us close any or all of these as he has done with previous groups.

The discussion group link from BB4W points to groups.io so that appears to be his official support forum for his paid program so that would seem to be the place to ask direct BB4W questions for him.

I thought the question is whether this group should voluntarily disband to which I would vote no.

As I have not contributed to the other two fora their fate is of much less concern to me. The major loss for me has already occurred which was the closure of the code files in the Yahoo BB4W group archives. I have no idea why that was done. Much of that material related to discussions that occurred here as well.

With that I have said all I want and probably more than I should have and will 'lurk' and see what happens.

Z

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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #5 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 08:44am »

Hi Folks,

Not surprisingly, given that it relates to a direct request from him, Richard is monitoring this conversation, and asks me to correct a misapprehension about the demise of the Yahoo files repository. To quote from his email:

[Z] "...seems to think that it [the Yahoo files area] was at one time accessible by non-members, and that I have "closed" that access. But that's not the case: making the Files area viewable by non-members isn't an option provided, and as far as I know it never was.

I have explained at the 'new' group that whilst the members and the entire message archive were transferred automatically the files weren't, and to transfer them all manually would be impractical. I have further said that I can transfer any specific files by request, and I have done so (for example only recently I transferred all the Box2D stuff, which was quite an effort)."

With regard to Zaphod's earlier query, I think the answer is yes, the cross-platform conforum would widen its scope to cover BB4W-only queries as well as those of a more cross-platform nature. That's certainly the implication of the suggestion that all members here (who presumably are more focussed on Windows-specific uses) should migrate.

David: thanks for your kinds words. I agree making it available as an archive would be a sensible decision if we decided to close it to new posts, though I haven't worked out yet how to do either - the only option I've found so far is to delete everything, permanently!

Best wishes,

D
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Zaphod
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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #6 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 2:12pm »

Who mentioned non-members?
Is anyone able to see even the directory of those Yahoo files other than Richard?

Z




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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #7 on: Dec 19th, 2017, 2:53pm »

I think the point is that you ALWAYS had to be logged in to Yahoo to see the files - as you do for the groups.io files area.

My membership of Yahoo groups seems to have lapsed, so I can't try it out.

While I'm here, Richard has published an announcement on the other forum, saying that BB4W queries are welcome:
Quote:
"There seems to be some confusion over the distinction between 'Cross Platform' on the one hand and 'BBCSDL' on the other. As far as I am concerned the former term should be considered to encompass BBC BASIC for Windows (BB4W) because that remains the principal means of running BBC BASIC programs on Windows.

BBCSDL refers to the specific code implementation based on SDL 2.0 which can be compiled to run on multiple platforms. Although one of them is Windows, there is no suggestion that it should be used in preference to BB4W unless (1) you are specifically writing code intended to run on multiple platforms or (2) you don't have the full (paid-for) version of BB4W.

Questions specifically related to BB4W are, of course, welcome here but if you are offering 'general purpose' code solutions I would naturally prefer that they be suitable for running on both BB4W and BBCSDL unless this is impractical."

A final note for now: I've worked out (with a steer from Richard) how to stop new posts without killing the forum or hiding existing ones, so if that's where things go, that's what I'll do. I'd consider that a suspension of service for the foreseeable future, but I can't foresee how long that would be!

Best wishes,

D
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xx Re: Suggestion to close the Conforum
« Reply #8 on: Dec 23rd, 2017, 5:58pm »

I find myself broadly in agreement with David Williams.

Can this forum be made 'read-only' so that the accumulated knowledge is not lost?

I will join the Cross-Platform forum anyway, especially now that BB4W support is confirmed.

Finally, thanks to DDRM and all others who have contributed and provided help with my queries.
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